I love Street Fighter III: Third Strike (3s). I like it better than all the other Street Fighter games combined, partially because it doesn't feel like an SF2 game, which is the exact thing that a lot of people who dislike Third Strike don't like. :^P
However, 3s has some problems - both with balance and system mechanics. Most people who play it will readily admit this. 3s was never updated or fixed. It has also never gotten a really "acceptable" console port, with no extra input lag and with all features intact, to the point where you could play said port and be ready to play it on an arcade setup with no adaptation.
So I figured, what the heck, if I ever got to do a 3s port - laugh it up, fuzzball - I'd like to make it 3s' (read as Third Strike Upper / Third Strike Dash, after SF2') and try to tackle tackle headbutt some of the problems the game has.
The goal of 3s' is to change the way the game is played AS LITTLE AS POSSIBLE while still fixing problems. So you won't find any "remove Yun" type things, and I will try to justify each suggested change. However, that does mean that things which are central to the current metagame will change, if those things are sufficiently unbalanced to warrant attention. My aim as a designer is to only nerf super dominant tactics a tiny bit to make them less dominant, rather than removing them entirely or drastically changing them. I much prefer to fix balance by making under-used supers useful, making the low-tier characters better, and fixing bugs or inconsistencies...so there is a lot of those things, instead.
Format:
Problem - Solution. Explanation.
OK, here goes...
System Mechanics:
Whiffing normal attacks for meter - Each successive whiffed normal now scales the whiffed-normal metergain rate by half (100%, 50%, 25%, 12.5%, etc). Whiffed specials are not changed. The scaling is reset whenever a move touches the opponent on hit/block/parry, or your character gets hit, blocks, or parries. Blocked projectiles do not reset this scaling for either character, projectiles that hit do reset it, and projectiles that are parried reset it for the character that threw the projectile only. Whiffing normals at full screen to build large chunks of meter is a main part of 3s. Completely removing the metergain on whiffed normals solves the problem, but fundamentally changes the game. This solution reduces the usefulness of whiffing multiple normals, but still allows one or two to build up a bar when you are close to full and allows zoning to be at least as useful as before, if not a teeny bit more useful.
Parries - +2f on the cooldown period after attempting a parry, before another parry is allowed. During the cooldown period for a specific parry, if you are hit with an attack that is parried the same way as the parry you just missed, you suffer crouching damage bonus. For example, if you attempt a Forward(6) parry and miss, and are then hit by an attack that can be parried with Forward(6) during the cooldown period, you take 25% extra damage. However, if you attempt a Forward(6) parry and miss, and are hit by an attack that must be parried Down(2), you will not take any extra damage. Being thrown out of parry cooldown does not grant extra damage. This change is intended to penalize people for mis-timing parries, without penalizing them extra for guessing wrong. If you mis-time a parry but it was the wrong parry, you take regular damage. If you mis-time a parry but it was the correct parry, you take extra damage. And, of course, you can still block at any time, even during parry cooldown. Successful parries are unchanged.
"Guess Parries" - Parries input during any wakeup animation, recovery roll, or air land-on-feet hitstun are only active for half as long as a regular parry, with the same cooldown period. If you are thrown during the parry window or cooldown from one of these parries, you cannot tech the throw. Parries input during throw-tech animations are not changed. Guess parries are very powerful because you sacrifice nothing by attempting one. This allows you to still try guess-parrying, you're just required to have better timing and commit slightly more because you're open to throws. They are still easier than red parries, but this makes varying your okizeme tactics or timing more effective against people who guess-parry. And combined with the damage bonus on missed parries, it makes guess-parrying much riskier.
"Charge Partitioning" - As soon as any charged direction (Back[4] or Down[2]) reaches 1/3 charge, the charge partition timer will be reset to maximum. Charge partitioning is a nice advanced technique that is present only in Third Strike, however the amount of time you have to partition your charge is RANDOM depending on where that hidden timer happens to be when you start charging. This is not so great, and is easily fixed. This change ensures charge partitioning is always as easy as possible.
Left-Right Unblockables - Left-right unblockables are not fixed, but any time a character is hit during block animation while they are facing the opposite direction from the hit, the damage scaling is reduced to 50% for that hit and the followup combo. Unblockables are sort of a core part of 3s at this point, so removing them is undesired because it would drastically alter some characters, even if removing unblockables is preferable from a design standpoint. This change simply reduces the effectiveness of unblockables a bit, while still allowing them to exist.
Characters:
Chun-Li:
- Houyoku-sen (SAII) now has a maximum of 1 stock instead of 2; the bar is now the maximum length possible, the same as Shin-Shoryuken. Really now, she needs this. The super still does a decent amount of stun, too.
- Cancel window on cr.Fwd (c.MK) fixed to not allow super-late cancels. She needs this too, perhaps these two changes together will encourage more diverse super-art choice. She still has all her other amazing normals, kara-throw, EK SBK and Lightning Legs, etc.
- Crouching Jab (2LP) startup increased from 2f to 3f. She's one of the only characters in the game with a 2f normal, and she's short, and it's crouching which means it's usable as a crouch-tech. Throws are still universal 2f punishes. She does NOT need this.
- Tensei Ranka (SAIII) startup hitbox reaches down to the floor so it can't be crouched; changed to pull in and downward so all hits connect vs airborne opponents more often; advantage on knockdown increased enough to allow crossup attempts afterward; maximum of 2 stocks available; bar is a bit longer, the same length as Shippu. Trying to make this super actually useful, let's make it her setup super.
- Middle hits of Houyoku-sen fixed to not un-combo occasionally vs crouching Makoto, etc. Bugfix.
- Chun-Li now goes through the mandatory one-standing-frame after wakeup, like every other character. Bugfix.
- Increase the height of her crouching head hurtbox (vulnerable box) by 2-3 pixels upward and 3-4 pixels backward in all applicable animations: crouching neutral, crouch-block, non-low-profile crouching attacks, etc. Bugfix! She's the shortest crouching character by quite a bit, and lots of things that should hit crouchers, like Remy's close Strong, Oro's standing Forward, or Dudley's EX Machine Gun Blow, miss on only Chun-Li.
Ken:
- Shippu Jinrai Kyaku (SAIII) now has a maximum of 2 stocks instead of 3; damage reduced by 15%. Even if Shippu didn't do any damage it would still be the most useful super in the game because it converts any normal into a setup, and 15% puts it just below Spinning Beat. It's only helped by worse guess-parries, too.
- Jab DP (623LP) damage reduced from 15 to 11.5. He can still do it twice, and doing two is still more damage than doing a Strong DP (623MP) but is not twice as much.
- Grounded opponent knockback on 2nd hit of Target Combo Strong->Fierce decreased slightly, to help DPs miss less often afterward / in the corner. Legitimate bugfix, because this sucks.
- Fix the crash when killing Makoto with a neutral throw. Depending on which version of 3s we're starting with, this could still be present. :^P
Yun:
- Genei Jin (SAIII) no longer grants all his normals increased priority. Yes, Third Strike has actual priority, and yes, Genei Jin makes ALL of Yun's normals count as Super hits, which crush all normals and specials during trades. You cannot out-poke him during it, and his Jab will beat all special moves and trade with supers. Let's fix that!
- Genei-Jin bar length increased, now same length as Sourai Rengeki. Duration of timer for the super is not changed. Note that the damage scaling during Genei Jin juggles has not been changed.
- Sourai Rengeki (SAII) now a maximum of 2 stocks instead of 3.
- Upkicks (623K) hitbox adjusted to reach further downward, so it misses standing/crouching opponents less often. Bugfix.
Makoto:
- Stun damage of Abare Tosanami (SAII) reduced by 50%. The super itself doesn't do that much stun, it's the other moves that lead to 100%, but we'd like to affect her gameplay as little as possible otherwise, and this lets us not have to adjust the stun on Fukiage as much as we'd have to if we didn't mess with the stun on SAII.
- Stun damage of L/M/H Fukiage reduced from 29/31/31 to 27/28/31. Fixes 100% stun combo, along with above change.
- Tanden Renki (SAIII) can be manually deactivated early by inputting QCT+K (236K) while the super art is active. The deactivation counts as a special move, and uses the same animation as her taunt after a Hayate, but it is cancellable at any time into attacks (not blocking or movement). This super increases her damage but prevents her from blocking while it is active. By allowing her to deactivate it and return to normal, it's buffed quite a bit because she doesn't have to suffer through 3-4 knockdowns with guess-parries. And being able to use the deactivation to cancel normals on hit/block would be interesting.
- Karakusa startup animation will no longer automatically throw-tech if Makoto is thrown out of it. Bugfix, and even as a Makoto player I think this is dumb. :^P
- Increase vacuum effect and hitstun time on the first hit of Seichusen Godanzuki (SAI), to help it fully connect from all distances or as a juggle. Bugfix.
- Fix bug where EX Oroshi (214PP) will not knock down when it connects with an opponent's limb hurtbox, as opposed to a body hurtbox. Bugfix. It's cool but unpredictable, and she'd rather have the knockdown.
- Fix bug where one frame of Hayate's (236[P]) startup/hold animation has a get-thrown-box that is too small compared to its' pushbox, resulting in it not being throwable even by many super throws. Bugfix, verified the bug by checking hitboxes. Thongboy Bebop will thank me, we still remember that match. :^)
- Remove invincibility on Makoto's recovery animation after a successful Karakusa (63214K); no change to invincible recovery animation on neutral throw (headbutt). Not necessary on the Karakusa, but changing this on her neutral throw would possibly leave her at a disadvantage, so even though it's a bug it's sort of the only real solution.
- No change on EX Oroshi xx Abare Tosanami comboing on Hugo. With the changes to her stun, this is more for style than anything now.
Dudley:
- Reduce stun damage on Rocket Uppercut (SAI).
- Increase stun damage on Rolling Thunder (SAII). Try to differentiate them somewhat.
- Fix Rocket Uppercut's "character point" position to not knock opponent backwards as often in juggles. Bugfix.
- Fix Corkscrew Blow to vacuum the opponent in on hit, so that it fully hits more often in juggle situations. Bugfix.
- Fix Rolling Thunder (SAII) to turn around if the player makes him dash again but he goes underneath the opponent. Bugfix.
- See if there is some way of making Cross Counter connect against invincible moves, rather than whiffing after taking the damage. Bugfix. If Valentine can do it, Dudley can do it. (^.^)
- Dudley's pretty alright, actually. (^.^)
Urien:
- Fix Tyrant Slaughter/Tyrant Punish (SAI) to fully connect for maximum damage vs all characters when crouching or in most juggle situations; increase damage by 25% to match Shin Shoryuken; limit to 1 stock instead of 2; increase bar length slightly. Bugfixes, more in line with what the intent of the super seems to be - pure damage. Still can be linked after lots of things on the ground.
- That's most of Urien...unblockables and charge partitioning are dealt with in System Mechanics, and vs-Alex juggles are dealt with under Alex's section.
Akuma:
- Stun bar increased to "regular" size instead of "short" size. His health can be left as-is, but considering one stun is basically death with that amount of health, let's make that just a teensy bit more difficult to accomplish.
- Messatsu Gou Rasen (SAII) bar length is now shorter than SAI or SAIII. Earlier access to Raging Demon/KKZ at the cost of having a terrible super otherwise.
- KKZ (hidden super) motion changed from D,D,D+PPP to D,D+PP; damage reduced from 107 to 95. First hit is still unparryable, but for the only guaranteed reset in the game let's make it slightly less amazing.
- Towards+Strong is still invincible to throws. This is useful, keep it!
Yang:
- Alter the trajectory of the divekick in Target Combo 3 (jump towards MK->DF+MK) so that it hits more often; alter the trajectory of bug Target Combo 3 (jump backward MK->DF+MK) so that it lands faster. Bugfixes.
- Fix bug where close standing Forward (MK) will sometimes not launch the opponent. Bugfix.
- Fix bug where Yun/Yang can end up behind Yang after being hit by Fierce Mantis Slashes (236HPx3) with a certain timing. Bugfix, probably Yang's pushbox.
- Actually, Yang's pretty okay too. (^.^) I'm fine leaving Sei'ei Enbu with the shortest bar in the game, because it is not anywhere near as dominant as Genei Jin, and costs him the use of EX slashes.
Ryu:
- Decrease opponent knockback from F+Strong (6MP) on hit, to make links after it more reliable. Bugfix.
- Increase forward movement on 2nd hit of Target Combo (far s.Fierce->s.RH), so that the s.RH will connect more reliably. Bugfix.
- Increase hitstun on far standing Forward, standing Roundhouse, close Fierce, crouching Fierce, crouching Short, and crouching Forward so they are not negative on hit. Bugfixes.
- Expand hitbox on LK Joudan Sokutou Geri (41236LK) downward so that it will not miss on some characters after close Fierce (HP) or crouching Fierce (2HP). Bugfix, because it misses on about half the cast for no real reason. The alternative is cr.Fierce forcing standing hitstun, but then he can always combo to Hurricane Kick so that might be too much of a buff.
- Lower opponent's knockup height from Jab and Strong DPs (623LP/MP), and reduce knockup height on the middle hits of Shinkuu Hadoken (SAI) so that all hits of the super will connect after a DP. Bugfix.
- Ryu is strong.
Oro:
- Examine pushboxes on Jinchu Nobori ("chicken kick") to help the [s.Strong xx Chicken Kick]x2 combo work on every character. Bugfix.
- Increase hitstop and allowed juggle time on Oniyama ([2]8P), to make super cancels out of it actually useful. Bugfix-ish, gives him more reason to use the move.
- Add forward throw (Towards+LP+LK) that uses the animation from his back throw but mirrored to toss them forward; only tosses them about half as far as his back throw. Oro currently has no way to throw without switching sides, which means he has to give up the corner at all times.
- Fix neutral throw so that it cannot be escaped before 3-4 hits, the same as all other mashable grabs. Bugfix.
- Increase length of the Kishi Riki (SAI) bar to match Tengu Stone's bar; make Human Pillar Driver (63214P) still be a hit-grab during Kishin Riki, so that Oro can combo into it from things like s.Forward (s.MK); increase damage of the air regular Kishi Riki grab when combo'd into; allow Oro to deactivate the regular Kishi Riki by inputting QCT+P during the super, using a shortened version of the activation animation. Kishin Riki is his least useful super. Human Pillar Driver change is a bugfix - you can still special cancel into it during Kishin Riki, but since it becomes a regular throw it won't combo.
Elena:
- Allow her to chain crouching Short (2LK) into itself. She has no confirmable lows, crouching Strong into super doesn't always combo, and she can't link supers off her command overheads like Dudley can, except in very special cases. This gives her a confirmable low at least.
- Make startup frames of all versions of Mallet Smash unthrowable, like they look. Bugfix/buff, Mallet Smash has 7f of throwable startup - she's even throwable during the frame where she has already left the floor!
- Allow cancels from the 2nd hit of standing Strong, not just the first hit. Small buff.
- Fix Brave Dance so it juggles properly vs airborne opponents outside the corner. Bugfix/buff.
- Speed up the cancel animation on Healing (SAIII), increase the rate of health recovery. Attempt to make it useful.
- She dances okay! Leaving her with 3 stocks for Spinning Beat (SAIII), also.
Ibuki:
- Health increased from 1035 to 1050, same as Twelve's health. Buff.
- Yami Shigure (SAIII) now has 2 stocks instead of 1. Buff.
- Allow Tsuiji Goe (623P, command jump) to be special- and super-cancelled much earlier in the animation, almost directly after takeoff; make Kunai cancelled from it face the correct direction if it hasn't passed over the opponent yet. Buff and bugfix.
- Fix the unique-animation standing Fierce in her Target Combos (B+Strong->Fierce and Jab->Strong(1)->Fierce) to never knock down, instead of sometimes resetting and sometimes knocking down. Bugfix: there are two simultaneous hitboxes and only one is marked as knockdown, so it depends on which one the game checks first. After feedback from more than one Ibuki player, it seems "always reset" is preferable to "always knock down".
- Remove the ability to throw-tech her Personal Action (taunt), and allow Ibuki to parry or attack in the air once the opponent recovers. Bugfix, and since it is currently VERY punishable on hit, might as well make it a semi-useful mixup option...
Necro:
- Change Slam Dance (SAII) startup from 0+2 to 2+0, so the total startup time is unchanged but it can't be jumped on reaction after the superflash. It could use improvement.
- Fix pushbox on Electric Shock (623P), and add a slight vacuum effect to the middle hits of all versions so that all hits of it connect more reliably, since it is so unsafe. Bugfix.
- Add EX Electric Shock, possibly allows juggles afterward, certainly safer on block than the Fierce version. Buff, and strange that he hasn't got it to start with.
- There's not a lot else I can think of to buff for Necro that wouldn't immediately make him crazy good. He has crouching Short xx Jab Tornado Hook to be safe on block and hitconfirm into super, and giving him a cancellable crouching Forward would be insane.
Alex:
- Change Hyper Bomb (SAI) startup from 0+1 to 1+0, so the total startup time is unchanged but it can't be jumped on reaction after the superflash. Make it slightly more useful. POSSIBLY reduce the damage a tiny bit unless it is the Backdrop Bomb (back-turned version) to compensate.
- Increase forward movement on Boomerang Raid's middle hits, and increase the range on the final grab, to prevent the grab from whiffing after the rest of the super has connected at medium range. Bugfix.
- Make all versions of Air Knee Smash not air-parryable; EX version is still ground parryable. Bugfix. The L/M/H versions can't even hit grounded characters so they are supposed to be antiairs, but being parryable makes them all horrible. Shootdown Backbreaker is not air-parryable, and this gives Alex standing Strong xx Air Knee Smash vs air parry-happy players.
- Increase the cancel window for his Target Combo (cr.Short->cr.Fwd) to be longer than 1f, so that it can be done as easily as any other Target Combo in the game. Bugfix.
- Allow juggles after Flash Chops that connect vs airborne opponents. Bugfix, and situational anyway.
- Allow crouching Strong (2MP) to be special- and super-cancelled on hit/block/parry. Buff, he sorely needs this.
- Allow crouching Forward (2MK) to be super-cancelled on hit/block/parry, including when used as part of his Target Combo. This and the cr.Strong change will make him miles better.
- Fix Air Stampede ("stomp", [2]8K) not knocking down if it hits a limb-hurtbox rather than a body hurtbox. Bugfix.
- Fix the position of the anchor point and pushbox for his air knockdown animation to allow juggles to work properly on him. Bugfix and stealth nerf, he's pretty much the only character with this much of a problem and it gets him out of a lot of things for free. Elena has a weird offset but it's just visual for her, the juggles still work.
- Fix position of hitboxes on j.D+Fierce (j.2HP) dive, to place them on his arms instead of his chest. Bugfix.
Hugo:
- Allow Monster Lariat (236+K) to be super-cancelled on hit, and allow supers to juggle after it. Megaton Press is his least-used super, this would provide a reason to pick it by giving you crouching Short xx Monster Lariat xx Megaton, whereas Hammer
MountainFrenzy would not fully connect. - Decrease startup of EX Giant Palm Bomber (63214PP) from 22f to 17f, the same as the Jab version. Give him ANY reason to use it! :^P
- Increase hitstun of crouching .Jab (2LP) and crouching Short (2LK) by 1-2f, to allow combos to EX Monster Lariat from farther away. It's pretty much his only confirm option, but is randomly blockable depending on distance.
- Add EX Shootdown Backbreaker, which allows juggles afterwards like his 2i version; distance can be controlled with LK+MK / MK+HK / LK+HK. Improvement, his other EXs are pretty situational.
- Reduce startup of L/M/H Meat Squasher (360K) from 21/31/44 to 18/24/30; reduce recovery on whiff from 30/33/36 to 26/29/32. It may still not be useful, but at least it'll be less "never-ever-ever use it".
- Fix the wrongly-offset hitboxes on frame 1 of his landing-from-air-hitstun. Bugfix.
Q:
- Allow crouching Jab, standing Short, and crouching Short to be special- and super-cancelled on hit/block/parry.
- Allow crouching Forward to be super-cancelled on hit/block/parry. These sound like a lot, but Ken (and now Elena) have way more options. Q could use at least this.
- Allow all overhead/low rushpunches ([4]6P/K/[P]) to be super-cancelled on hit/block/parry. Make the riskier versions at least AS useful as the safe version.
- Decrease the startup of far standing Jab from 6f to 4f. It's not a super amazing move and this will help some of his problem matchups, like Akuma, quite a bit.
- Extend the cancel window on B+RH (4HK) past the first active frame, so it can be cancelled from further away. Bugfix.
- Increase hitstun on crouching Short, crouching Forward, and standing Roundhouse so they are not negative on hit. Bugfix. Standing Roundhouse is -10 on hit, for goodness' sake.
- Change opponent's movement when juggled with the middle hits of all High Speed Barrage ("slaps") versions, so that all of the hits will connect from more ranges and at more heights. Bugfix.
- Extend hitbox of first hit of EX High Speed Barrage downward so that it more consistently connects against crouching characters.
- Add EX (PP) version of Total Destruction (SAIII) which immediately does the grab part upon activation, as with Oro's Kishi Riki. Let's imagine we want this super to be useful.
- Do not allow the punch version of Total Destruction to trade hits. Bugfix, which occasionally causes Q to die.
- Allow Q to deactivate Total Destruction by entering QCT+P while the super is active. It might not be used, but most other timer-based things got it.
- Decrease health bonus for having 1-3 Personal Actions (taunts) from 1200 health base/1400/1705/2050 to 1200 health base/1400/1600/1800. To compensate for him being a decent character, need to slightly reduce his 200% health bonus for 3 taunts.
Remy:
- Stun bar increased to "regular" size instead of "short" size. I assume this was because he's supposed to be a zoner, but there's no reason for him to be a higher-risk character this way with how bad zoning ended up being in 3s.
- Increase damage of crouching Strong by 6pt to almost match Ryu's. It seriously does the wrong amount of damage.
- Fix the earlier hitboxes on close Fierce to knock down vs airborne opponents like the later hitboxes do, rather than have them land standing; allow juggles afterward. Bugfix, give him a consistent ability to use this move as antiair.
- Increase hitstun of far Forward, far Roundhouse, crouching Forward, and Towards+Forward (6MK) so that they are not negative on hit. Being punishable by Houyoku-sen after hitting Chun-Li with all these moves is seriously wrong.
- Decrease grounded opponent knockback on standing Forward (MK), enlarge hitboxes on 2nd hit of Target Combo (standing Forward->RH) so that it connects on everyone standing and most people crouching. Bugfix, it completely whiffs against Yun/Yang/etc at point blank when standing...how useless...
- Allow chaining from crouching Jab->crouching Short and crouching Short->crouching Jab. Give him some kind of low confirm, since he has to be charging already in order to use it.
- Decrease total length of Personal Action (taunt) from 131f to ~80f. Still situational, but no longer entirely impractical. Makoto's is 83f or so.
- Increase meter gain from all Light of Virtues on startup/hit/block from 0/1/1 to 1/3/2. Give his projectile meter for executing it, and more meter when it connects, to help his zoning be actually useful.
- Allow all strengths of Rising Rage Flash to be super-cancelled on hit/block/parry; allow juggles after all versions of Rising Rage Flash. Make the risky reversal more useful, allow juggles in situations where it hits vs high airborne opponents.
- Increase hit advantage of Short/Forward Cold Blue Kicks (63214K) so they are not negative on hit from up close; make Forward version +2 so that supers can be linked off it at point-blank. Bugfix, and buffs.
- Remove superflash on activation of Blue Nocturne (SAIII) pose, only show the superflash after it successfully counters something; still always spends the meter but not on activation, only on successful counter/recovery from pose/being thrown; increase bar length by a bit; make it properly juggle/knock down vs air. Bugfixes, let's make it a real freakin' counter super.
Twel(e)ve:
- Health increased from 1050 to 1120, the same as Sean/Remy/Necro/etc.
- Increase hitstun on standing Strong, far Strong, standing Fierce, crouching Fierce, standing Short, standing Forward, standing Roundhouse, crouching Forward, and Back+Forward (4MK) so they are not negative on hit. Really now...
- Make crouching Strong and standing Forward only parryable high, not both ways; make crouching Fierce and Back+Forward (4MK) only parryable low, not both ways. Bugfixes/buffs, depending on how you look at the moves.
- Activate the earlier hitboxes in Back+Forward (4MK) that exist but cannot connect. Bugfix. The hit spark is positioned as if the earlier low hitboxes are supposed to connect, but they can't for some reason.
- Allow far Strong, standing Strong, and crouching Strong to be special- and super-cancelled on hit/block/parry.
- Allow crouching Strong to be superjump-cancelled on hit/block, like standing Forward, so that he has more options into X.F.L.A.T.
- Allow crouching Forward to be super-cancelled on hit/block/parry. Why is he SO limited?!
- Increase hit and block advantage of Jab A.X.E. (214LP) so that it is at most -1 or -2 on block. He has nothing even close to safe...
- Allow all air normals to be special-cancelled on hit/block into A.X.E. (j.214P) or D.R.A. (j.214K) and super-cancelled into X.F.L.A.T (SAII). Air mobility is his "thing", why not let it go a bit further...
- Change opponent trajectory when juggled with X.N.D.L. to drag them down so that more hits of it will make contact if they are hit higher up. Bugfix.
- Remove low-damage air-to-air version of X.F.L.A.T., have it always do full damage even vs air; increase number of stocks to 2. Justifiable buff, the air-to-air version is terrible.
- During X.C.O.P.Y., allow Twelve to do EX moves, and maybe even the opponent's chosen super, by spending chunks of the remaining timer; reduce X.C.O.P.Y. startup from 12f to 1f so that comboing into and out of it is easier; when hit during X.C.O.P.Y.'s recovery, instead of taking increased damage, Twelve now takes 66% damage.
Sean:
- Increase hitstun of close and far Fierce, crouching Fierce, standing Forward, far Roundhouse, crouching Forward, and Towards+Fierce (6HP) to not be negative on hit. Bugfixes.
- Allow Sean Roll (214P) to be super-cancelled during the middle. Pretty useless move right now.
- Decrease the startup of L/M/H Ryuubi Kyaku (236K) from all being 25f to 17/19/21f; make Roundhouse version knock down. Currently they all have the same startup, which means parrying them is no different, and they basically all have the same use.
- Increase hit advantage of L/M versions of Ryuubi Kyaku (236K), to allow links to supers after hitting. Currently they are all negative on hit.
- Decrease the startup of all Tackles so that cr.Fwd xx Jab Tackle combos, standing/crouching Fierce xx Strong Tackle combos, and Fierce Tackle is 1f away from comboing in that situation.
- Allow Fierce Tackle to be faked/cancelled by tapping K during startup.
- Make Fierce and EX Tackles un-ground-parryable.
- Change EX Tackle (236PP~P) so that the hitbox is active from 8f-end and it will automatically grab whenever it reaches the opponent; allow EX Tackle to be super-cancelled on the last hit. Tackle is also pretty crap, it's very unique so how about we make it a move he wants to choose, instead.
- Reduce startup of L/M/H/EX Dragon Smash (623P) from 5/5/9/8f to 3/4/5/3f. Somewhere between Ken and Ryu.
- Fix Hyper Tornado (SAIII) so that it juggles properly vs airborne opponents. If Goodnight Sugah in MvC2 can do it, surely Hyper Tornado can.
- Decrease recovery on Hadou Burst from 61f to 51f. Still unsafe, but a bit more setup time on hit.
- I would have suggested replacing his Fierce/EX DP animation with the extra-hit dunk he had in Second Impact, but I don't know how possible that is to actually do.
Additional Bugfixes:
Make All Successful Throws Invincible for the Entire Animation - It can cause bad situations or bugs when characters are hit out of a successful throw animation, like the Remy/Urien glitch or the Q throw bug. It's also good game design.
Fix Bug Where Characters Are Allowed To Move During The Opponent's Superflash - A rare bug that occurs if you interact with a projectile on the same frame your opponent's superflash starts. I've seen it happen in real matches, so it deserves to be fixed.
Fix Bug Where Characters Are Allowed To Move During The Opponent's Superflash - A rare bug that occurs if you interact with a projectile on the same frame your opponent's superflash starts. I've seen it happen in real matches, so it deserves to be fixed.
Allow Universal Overheads (MP+MK) and Personal Actions (HP+HK) to be Done While Holding Away or Towards - Bugfix, it only works for throws. There's really no reason for this not to be possible, and it might open up some new kara-overhead options like Ryu Towards+Fierce.
Fix Bug Where Some Characters Can Attack Immediately After Teching Air Throws - Makoto, etc. Self-explanatory.
Fix Bug Where Some Characters Can Attack Immediately After Teching Air Throws - Makoto, etc. Self-explanatory.
Fix Rare Move Interaction Bugs - X.F.L.A.T. vs EX Yagyou Dama / Aegis Reflector / Tengu Stone, Critical Combo Attack / Deadly Double Combination vs Magnetic Storm, etc. Fix soft-lock conditions or other serious problems. Not fixing being able to OTG Dudley or Hugo with certain supers after being thrown, as all of those are rollable.
Characters Passing Through Each Other - NOT FIXABLE - Interactions such as Makoto's EX Hayate vs Chun Li's dash, or Chun Li's dash vs Yun's dash / lunge punch...are unfortunately not able to be fixed without a major rewrite of the collision system to make it "continuous collision". As this would change the game significantly, I would rather leave them as they are. At least it's very limited circumstances...
--
This was pretty in-depth, but I take this kind of stuff in game design seriously. Even if there is no chance in hell of ever actually making this, I treated it as if I were.
Special thanks to Alex Sanchez for proofreading.
As promised, I read it after arriving home from TGL. A rather interesting read, especially with regards to the changes for the system mechanics.
ReplyDeleteIncredibly interesting read. I think 3S could use an update, with many of the changes you've suggested. Also, perhaps the inclusion of new characters? If adding any of the classic 16 (beside Ryu, Ken, Chun) is too much, at least a playable Gill that can be used like a regular cast member.
ReplyDeleteI just approached it as if I got the source for the game, so creating new art is way beyond the scope of this. :^(
DeletePlayable Gill is harder than you think, he's really REALLY broken and not super easily fixed. It'd be interesting to try, but I'm decently afraid of a GGAC+R Kliff/Justice situation with him. He wasn't designed to ever be fair...
As a game designer myself and SF competitor and hopeful designer of a popular fighting game in the near future; I REALLY love these changes
DeleteWhat an amazing read! Bookmarked for future reference.
ReplyDeleteI am not very familiar with 3S but I have some questions:
- In a video (with Max) I remember you talking about making a projectile un-parriable if it travels farther than half screen, does that suggestion have its place within these?
- For meter scaling, how would scaling meter gain proportionally to the meter acquired compare to your solution? (i.e. If I have 0 meter my normal gains 100% of its meter but only 25% of that amount if I have 75% meter - a bar and half on a 2 bars super.) Also, how about making only heavy attacks gain meter if the character has more than 50% super meter?
- In some situations you choose to fix problems with reducing knock back and in others by increasing forward movement (e.g. Ryu's TC and f+MP.) Any comments on how to identify which situations are fixed by reducing knock back and which are fixed by adjusting the character's movement?
- Last one I promise: What type of collision does 3S use and how is it different from this "continuous collision" thing? (Maybe a little primer on video games collision on the next post? :) I love reading those)
- I would not try the un-parryable projectile idea for this, since the aim is to keep it feeling like Third Strike as much as possible and that includes "zoning is pretty crap". If there were another SF3, where characters could be redesigned around zoning being more useful, I would certainly try it there.
Delete- My solution is designed so that you only really benefit from whiffing 1-2 normals until making contact with the oppoennt again. Scaling based on how much meter you have is strongly biased in favor of multi-stock SAs, for example you could fill up a new Spinning Beat from 0 very easily since that's only 33% of the total, but it would take forever to get a ShinSho (or a revised 1-stock Houyoku-sen) by whiffing. Plus, it means that when you are close to zero meter, whiffing 5-10 attacks is still viable, which was what I wanted to discourage. My aim is to eliminate long series of whiffs, rather than to discourage things like one cr.Strong here or there. Biasing it for Heavy attacks is also unbalanced across the cast, because you have Chun's B+Fierce that's incredibly quick on whiff vs like Hugo's fierces...
- Reducing knockback was only applied / should only be applied in situations where it wouldn't change the character outside of that Target Combo, or where increasing forward movement on the next move would not work or would look strange. The FIRST hit of any target combo is just a normal attack, so reducing knockback on it would change a lot about the character when it's used by itself, thus I tried to avoid that when possible. (I did it for Remy's s.Fwd because if you moved the next hit forward enough to work it would be around a full Remy width, and would look very odd.) The 2nd+ hits of target combos can be their own unique animations, separate from any standalone normal attack, so adjusting the knockback on those is okay because it doesn't otherwise affect the character. And adjusting knockback there is preferred, because it looks better.
- Continuous vs Discrete collision detection, here
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collision_detection#A_posteriori_.28discrete.29_versus_a_priori_.28continuous.29
Discrete collision is faster and MUCH easier to write: do the boxes touch? Then move the left one left and the right one right by half the overlap, until they do not.
Most older games use this, because they had to write the collision resolution themselves, and it only breaks in cases where the combined movement of the characters is very large compared to the size of their pushboxes. It breaks when both characters move far enough in one frame that their anchor points pass each other, and the previously-on-the-left character is now on the right, so the collision is resolved by moving them further to the right because there's no way to determine they were previously-on-the-left and went "through" the other object.
Continuous collision attempts to determine the sub-frame time the boxes actually touched, and resolve it from there. Or does multiple smaller sub-frame timesteps, which is more CPU intensive.
Skullgirls uses continuous collision*, so characters can move arbitrarily fast and will not pass each other, but it was a huge pain to write even with rapid iteration and I wouldn't have wanted to try doing it on a CPS3.
Continuous collision CAN have a different resolution for the setup on a given frame than discrete collision, and since the aim is to change the game as little as possible that's why I would not fix it for this.
* I added continuous collision to the Skullgirls engine as a direct result of experiencing the problems 3s has, as a Makoto player. :^)
Thanks a lot! Very insightful.
DeleteBut now I have few more question lol (I hope I can get an answer)
Here I go:
1) Since the aim is just to fix the pass through glitches, instead of a major re-writing of all the collision detection, I would like to know how realistic is this hot fix / hack (thinking as a gamer - no idea how it would work in code - also, IDK how bad or good this is):
- Add an additional point to characters (like the "origin" point) that is positioned a full character width behind the character.
Just for the sake of clarity, lets call this new point the "shadow" point.
The shadow point will be used to tell which direction the characters should be pushed back if there is an intersection, so instead of using the origin of the characters and push each character towards the side where their origin is, they will be pushed towards the direction where their shadow point is.
So now all characters have 2 points: the origin point used almost the same as before (minus to tell the direction of the push back) and the shadow point that is used as a check for whether the characters passed through each other or not.
For this to not mess-up with cross-ups, the shadow point will be deactivated or overlap the origin if the character is air-born.
- IMO, this should still be able to push the characters back correctly using the same discrete collision detection as long as their push boxes overlap (I can't imagine a case where both characters passed through each other more than their combined widths in a single frame and still have their push boxes overlap) and since it is a check limited only to when characters are grounded, I don't think it would change game-play further than fixing the pass through glitch.
As for how this will be implemented, I have no idea (that's why I'm asking.) I imagine it wouldn't be a huge change to the code and I guess it's not resource intensive, since it is just adding a point and use it instead of another point in a particular situation, but that's all I can speculate.
2) When I thought about the 2nd point, it reminded me that SF4 uses 2 points for their characters (based on the SSF4 hitbox data that was leaked a while back.)
The 2nd point is not on the hitbox layout all the time but appears during some moves.
Any ideas on what that 2nd point is used for?
3) Does SF4 use discrete or continuous collisions? (My guess is discrete because of all the unblockables and pass through glitches but a professional opinion is always better)
If 3s ever get's a complete remake, I swear I'll riot if they don't choose you to fix everything. This list was seriously amazing. Good attention to detail on even the most obscure bugs and glitches of 3s. Idk why a good amount of the 3s community is so scared of change to their game but I think if it got changed it would be the most perfect fighter of all time. I mean it already comes close and 3s is broken as hell.
ReplyDeleteOne should not presume to alter the Rembrandt, no matter how good Skullgirls is
ReplyDelete3s noob here. Can someone explain why standing jabs can be parried high or low? What was the intent?
ReplyDeleteNobody is scared of a 3s rebalance, but then again nobody needs one. 3s players just want a legitimate sequel.
ReplyDeleteTalk about balacing a game over 15 years old is a stupid waste of time because hardcore players don't want it and its not like it would bring new players in. I mean can you seriously imagine if Neatherrealms balanced UMK3 in 2016, it would be a colossal waste of time. Nobody is going to get serious about a game thats been untouched for over a decade because of a balance change today.
I agree this is a major issue with changing too little... it may create a new version that is not widely accepted: 990608 comes to mind, as it
Deleteadresses unblockables, makes minor adjustments to characters... and nobody plays it!
Then again, I think CAPCOM probably has zero interest in doing a GGAC+R style of update to 3rdstrike, and even less of doing a proper sequel
This isn't something Mike expects to happen, just a hypothetical "what if" situation. Plus, I imagine it is thought experiments like this that help game designers improve and learn from past games. We all get an insight into game design as well which is always nice.
DeleteHm, with those whiff normal meter nerfs the nerfs to Yun are way to extreme. I'd just do the normal whiff nerf and probably let him rock. He really isn't OP if he can't 'perma-Jin' you where you fuck up once and then have to fight him basically in Genei-Jin mode the rest of the round or he is running away building meter. You fixed the issue already.
ReplyDeleteAlso with the nerf's to Chun SAII people would just use SAI since it would then be way better. I'd do the bug fixes, hurt box fixes, cr. jab nerf, 2f recovery on cr. MK, leave late cancel on cr. MK, and then on SAII just lower the damage by about 15%. That would bring her in line imo. SAIII buffs could be interesting if it let her setup UOH stuff.
Ken I think SAIII should only be nerfed about 10% dmg and 2 bar wouldn't really change stuff since he rarely gets over 2 bars anyways since he uses it constantly. Leave LP DP as is or maybe 13 dmg not down to 11.5. Double LP SRK should be chunky.
Also no throw break during parries would really change the game. I disagree with that. Like the rest for the most part.
One more thing on Yun. Only other thing I'd give him is a meter gain nerf on his 'ender combo' after Genei-Jin also. Meter gain is like halved during the ender or something. That and the whiff stuff would force him to engage you to get meter and he'd still be scary in Genei-Jin. Just he would have to work to get into Genei-Jin a bit more.
DeleteI agree on Chun and Ken
DeleteHow would you feel about 2 stock Hyper Tornado for Sean?
ReplyDeleteSomethings i don't agree with or makes me think 'is this really needed?' like keeping throw-invincible f+MP(clearly its a bug) and giving everyone lows into confirmable supers but very interesting and entertaining read, thanks.
ReplyDeletebtw did you forget to fix the +2f crouch block stun on Chun Ryu Q (and his +1 block stun standing)?
I agree
DeletePractically perfect. I've seen two different modded iso's of 3s, one was pretty absurd, the other sensible, but this list would be the best for the game.
ReplyDeleteAlso, here's a link to a video about the edit I think is a "good" one. Maybe it'll help you find the author: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zenJc7DM_Mk
DeleteI think this mod does a great job by mixing nice changes with fun stuff... really interesting ideas!
DeleteGodd awful changes. Get rid of everything a signature player has or reduce it to garbage, and then change the game some more. The suggestions on the low tier chars like sean are great, but the other ones such as killing the dmg on unblockables like urien or even completely making his reflector nearly not worth it is trash
ReplyDeleteHey Mike,
ReplyDeleteDo you think Genei Jin could be nerfed by making it more like alpha 3, where if you get hit the super ends?
I feel like this would still retain the flow of the character but allow a little more counter play. You could even remove the ability to block during GJ on top, though it could be too much of a nerf.
Hey Mike Z. Try to get in contact with RVN on fightcade. He has the source tools to make changes like with what he did with 4rd strike.
ReplyDeleteHello, I'm a 3rdStrike player from Brazil and I really love the game. We have a small but very dedicated community over here, and we play it a lot. Being from Brazil, it's a huge issue for us the fact that there is no decent port of the game. It's really hard to buy a cabinet over here since it is overly expensive and unreliable. So we practice in the best non-arcade setups we can find and try to adapt quickly when travelling abroad and playing on the arcade.
ReplyDeleteEven though I would never agree with some elitists that refuse to play on other setups, I do agree that some differences, specially those regarding to speed, do affect a lot in our level of play.
It's not that we can't adapt, but it feels bad not being able to play and practice the same version everyone agrees is the best. THIS COULD BE SOLVED IF A NEW CONSISTENT VERSION IS CREATED AND EVERYONE PLAYED IT, but it is a very delicate equilibrium between changing aspects that would definitely help the game and changing something that arguably would improve it but isn't well accepted so players prefer the classic version.
Personally, I really like many of the changes you suggested, others not so much. I'll comment some of them in a future post, but I will support your version if one day it becomes a reality. If your updated version is really good, it could even have an arcade release so the japanese community would also play it. I think it would be better than the current re-release they did on the the TaitoNesica cabinets
- Parries +2f on cooldown:
ReplyDeleteI think this would be problematic because it would create more situations that the game thought you wanted to parry but
you actually didn't. In example, if you want to walk and parry forward, this change makes it harder...
Also I don't feel penalizing people for mistiming parries is a needed change
- Unblockables:
Unblockables in 3S aren't as bad as in other games, but as soon as you make a decision to not remove them completely, your change becomes only a damage nerf to the few characters that use unblockables. But these few characters aren't top tier or dominant, and some players even prefer other options available besides the unblockables.
Why is this damage nerf needed? It makes no sense and I feel it takes from the fun, interesting to watch, flashy and variety part of the game.
Lot of interesting ideas in here. I would love to try this out.
ReplyDeleteOne thing I'm a little confused about though, am I reading this right when you say that for mistimed parries it's better to guess wrong than guess right? That seems kind of backwards. And at my novice level where I can sometimes make reads but aren't always good at timing it right, it'd just scare me away from trying anymore.
Also, maybe I'm just biased but I feel like Ibuki's buffs are close to meaningless while everyone else is getting much cooler new toys. :'(
Here is what i would consider doing in addition.
ReplyDeleteSystem.
Excessive Juggles - Combos longer than Xhits or Ydamage or Zstun, can be air teched like in sfAlpha. Cost is one EX worth of meter. *you still have to parry on the way down but now its not 'just watch your character die'.*
Chun-Li.
Tensei Ranka (SAIII) should always have all the hits connect *given its low damage and limited use.*
Yun.
Genei Jin (SAIII) should be a max length super bar, and retain the usual timer duration. *It is too dominating and game changing to let it be activated off of two block strings.*
Makoto.
If we get cancels for Tanden Renki (SAIII) or other 'changed state' supers, let the timer still tick down and allow the super to be reactivated during that time as well. Turning the meter on costs 5% of the total meter each time.
Urien.
If you parry an unblockable setup, allow the defending player to tech a throw attempt. Currently, *if you parry an unblockable setup, urien can throw you out of that parry state and this throw cannot be teched.*
Akuma.
Better damage reduction after KKZ reset. *It should not hurt that much since you landed it during a juggle.*
Make the first hit of KKZ parry-able but with difficult timing.
Ibuki.
If Yami Shigure (SAIII) gains 2 stocks of meter, then her dizzy hits and damage would need a review. *Yami Shigure with more meter would be excessively good for stunning and also weak given how drastic her damage scaling is for longer combos and combos using special moves.*
**cont** 1/2
Slightly increase damage of standing LK xx MK. *This is her weakest damage combo in the game.*
DeleteSlightly reduce damage scaling for Ibuki's longer combos, by changing her air target combos to behave as one hit instead of two, to encourage their use. *Presently it makes sense to do standing MK xx Raida (command hit-grab) in nearly every situation.*
Allow Ibuki to parry during Tsujii Goe (moonsault flip). She is very open during this move. *This would enable different setups given the spacing and descent of Tsujii Goe.*
Allow Ibuki to parry during the descent following her Kazekiri (uppercut) on hit/parry but not on block/whiff. *When Kazekiri hits, the enemy can simply SRK her follow ups, this would give her defensive options instead of making Kazekiri unusable vs SRK.*
Increase the damage from max distance single hit Kazekiri (LK, MK, HK). *it is very low.*
Increase hit stun when connecting with Kasumi Suzaku (SAI). *If ibuki is high in the air there are many situations where you must choose to not do full damage unless you want to get punished when you land.*
Change the direction you are required to hold when using EX kunai version 2 as a crossup. *currently you must hold away instead of toward*
Change Ibuki's taunt *so she is completely safe from air-throws/throws* when it connects. (assuming she gets to air parry during the descent).
Increase the damage bonus given by Ibuki's taunt by 25%. Since you must give up an opportunity to do guaranteed damage now and the taunt requires Ibuki to be close range, *the Taunt bonus should be greater than simply doing the same combo twice.*
Allow Ibuki's Taunt to hit crouching opponents as an overhead. Also slightly increase the delay before the active frames so the enemy can react. *this increases her offensive options at varying ranges.*
Slightly increase the hit stun from Hien (penguin kicks) on hit, but not on block/whiff/parry, *so characters cant always dash under before ibuki can attack.*
Allow regular Kunai to auto correct if the opponent dashes under ibuki after Hien (penguin kicks) on block/parry.
Allow ibuki to air parry after Hien (penguin kicks) on hit/parry/block, but not on whiff. *she is very open.*
Reduce or remove the 'hit as crouching' penalty when hitting Ibuki during her FF dash and command dash (Kasumi Gake). Its already risky enough with counter hit damage. bugfix. *if makoto does Fukiage during ibuki's FF dash, it can 1 hit kill ibuki.*
Force the second hit of her standing far HP xx HP target combo to always connect if the first hit connects. *The first hit can land from too far away for the second hit to land*
Air LP xx HP target combo and air HP does not put Gill/Urien/Hugo in a turn around state, as such *it cannot be followed up with Yoroi Doushi (SAII).*
Make air HP cause the enemy to force-stand on hit, so ibuki can follow up with Yoroi Doushi (SAII) if the enemy failed to defend.
Allow the third hit of standing LK xx MK xx HK to be high jump cancelable. *to be in line with other versions of her standing HK.*
Allow the third hit of standing far LP xx MP xx toward+LK to be command dash and high jump cancelable. *so its not just a low damage spacing tool with no follow up*
Increase damage of Yami-Shigure(SAIII) to always do full damage and stun regardless of how many daggers hit the enemy. *given the spread of the daggers combined with distance to the enemy and width of the enemy, it is difficult to force all the daggers to hit*
If you're taking requests for this imaginary edit, i'd love for Elena to be able to Super-Cancel the 2nd hit of her hk.ScratchWheel, with that hit (still?) causing a knockdown.
ReplyDeleteWith your speed buff to her SA3, this could make for a safe full-healing option, either as a punish (cr.mp xx hk.DP) or as a gamble-confirm (hp.MalletSmash ~ hk.DP) even if the opponent rolls, since you'd start healing while they're floating.
I know that you will not see this, but i really love this balance...
ReplyDeleteHi this is literally years late, but I would like to mention that, as an ibuki player, i would prefer if her back+mp>hp target combo should reset everytime instead of getting knocked down every time. ibuki has a cross under mixup when you cancel the TC into light command dash and it's used fairly regularly by many ibuki players. The light kazekiri follow up will always connect, regardless of the knockdown/reset state and will result in a knock down. if players want the oki, they can opt for kazekiri followup and if they want the reset, they can light command dash as a follow up instead. that's all i have to say, thanks for the fun read!
ReplyDeleteEdited! I was waiting for an opinion. :^)
DeleteHey, Mike. I've been trying to find your opinion on BBCT and why you feel it's the best blazblue but haven't had any luck. Could you write about it sometime? It always sounds like you have a lot to say about it and I'd enjoy reading about it.
ReplyDelete